Beethoven - 'Moonlight' Sonata

Roni · Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

Beethoven's "Moonlight sonata", a name coined by German music critic
Ludwig Rellstab after Beethoven's death, is one of the most widely
known classical music pieces, and has been since it was composed some
200 years ago.

But let us examine it more closely and look at the facts surrounding
the piece, find past and future musical connections and, of course,
compare and choose the best recordings of the sonata.

Read on for detailed analysis of Beethoven's 'Moonlight' Sonata, and a
comprehensive recordings review, all with audio examples:

http://classicalmusicblog.com/2007/09/beethoven-sonata.html

Roni
http://classicalmusicblog.com/

Archived from group: rec>music>classical>recordings

William Sommerwerck · Joined: 04 Aug 2007 Posts: 3

Interesting. A couple of points...

The first movement is "obviously" (???) a funeral march, a dirge.

The first time I heard the last movement (Rubinstein), I was surprised that
it sounded like silent-movie "chase" music. I wasn't the only person ever to
notice this -- Preston Sturges uses it to great effect in the opening scene
of "Sullivan's Travels". (The men fighting on the train represent "Capital"
and "Labor", by the way.)

My favorite "Moonlight" is Bernard Roberts' on Nimbus. He not only "nails"
the character of each movement, but makes these three wildly disparate
movements sound as if they belong in the same work. This is a remarkable,
nay, even unto incredible, achievement. It's difficult to even _imagine_ a
better performance.

I'm sure I will shortly be lectured on what a dull, uncommitted, bland, etc,
performance this is. Regardless, the Roberts set is excellent, very much
worth owning, and dirt-cheap.

Matthew B. Tepper · Joined: 04 Aug 2007 Posts: 67

Roni appears to have caused the following letters to be
typed in @50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:

> Beethoven's "Moonlight sonata", a name coined by German music critic
> Ludwig Rellstab after Beethoven's death, is one of the most widely
> known classical music pieces, and has been since it was composed some
> 200 years ago.

Gosh, I don't think that any of us here knew that before.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Tom Deacon is a liar and a scoundrel who cannot hold on to a job.

Prai Jei · Joined: 04 Aug 2007 Posts: 9

Roni (or somebody else of the same name) wrote in message
:

> Beethoven's "Moonlight sonata", a name coined by German music critic
> Ludwig Rellstab after Beethoven's death, is one of the most widely
> known classical music pieces, and has been since it was composed some
> 200 years ago.

First time I heard it I thought, well we've got a slow movement, a minuet
and trio, and a finale. Whatever happened to the first movement?
--
ξ Smile

Proud to be curly

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

Richard · Joined: 27 Sep 2007 Posts: 6

This so-called "detailed analysis" begins with so many untruths, I could not
go on reading it.

e.g. The analysis claims in part:

"The sonata, which is in three movements, as most sonatas of the classical
period...."

This is certainly true of the concerto, but it is by no means true of the
sonata. Several of Beethoven's early sonatas contain four movements.

Also, Assuming the Albinone excerpt he cites is in C# minor, it goes nowhere
near the claimed "subdominant F#" tonality. The F# is merely used as a
passing tone in the bass.

In actuality, the whole question is moot as the excerpt selected appears
to be in the key of G# minor, not C# minor!!

"Roni" wrote in message@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> Beethoven's "Moonlight sonata", a name coined by German music critic
> Ludwig Rellstab after Beethoven's death, is one of the most widely
> known classical music pieces, and has been since it was composed some
> 200 years ago.
>
> But let us examine it more closely and look at the facts surrounding
> the piece, find past and future musical connections and, of course,
> compare and choose the best recordings of the sonata.
>
> Read on for detailed analysis of Beethoven's 'Moonlight' Sonata, and a
> comprehensive recordings review, all with audio examples:
>
> http://classicalmusicblog.com/2007/09/beethoven-sonata.html
>
>
> Roni
> http://classicalmusicblog.com/
>

Richard · Joined: 27 Sep 2007 Posts: 6

Way to go, Matthew!!

"Matthew B. Tepper" wrote in message@216.168.3.70...
> Roni appears to have caused the following letters to
be
> typed in @50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Beethoven's "Moonlight sonata", a name coined by German music critic
> > Ludwig Rellstab after Beethoven's death, is one of the most widely
> > known classical music pieces, and has been since it was composed some
> > 200 years ago.
>
> Gosh, I don't think that any of us here knew that before.
>
> --
> Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
> My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
> My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
> To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
> Tom Deacon is a liar and a scoundrel who cannot hold on to a job.
>

Roni · Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

Richard,

Thank you for the comments, but I must argue.

> "The sonata, which is in three movements, as most sonatas of the classical
> period...."
>
> This is certainly true of the concerto, but it is by no means true of the
> sonata. Several of Beethoven's early sonatas contain four movements.

It is true that Beethoven and other composers of the classical era had
written sonatas with 4 and sometimes 2 movements, but the vast
majority of classical sonatas had 3 movements, and that is what is
meant by "most".

> Also, Assuming the Albinone excerpt he cites is in C# minor, it goes nowhere
> near the claimed "subdominant F#" tonality. The F# is merely used as a
> passing tone in the bass.
>
> In actuality, the whole question is moot as the excerpt selected appears
> to be in the key of G# minor, not C# minor!!

The "f-sharp" note in the bass refers to the opening bars of
Beethoven's sonata, and not Albinoni's. It is indeed a passing tone in
the bass, and that is why the whole descending bass line is not a
strict Phrygian progression. There is no change of tonality, but the f-
sharp note is a subdominant note in the key of C-sharp minor, while
the harmony is a Neapolitan sixth.

The Albinoni excerpt is in G minor.

So, there are not inconsistencies or untruths. It is merely a question
of reading the text correctly - perhaps the paragraph should be
revised.

Roni

Richard · Joined: 27 Sep 2007 Posts: 6

First of all I apologize for stating the Albinone was in G# minor. I
thought the author was making a direct key parallel, and thereby discounted
the half step. Otherwise, though, I have to disagree. The sonata in the
18th century evolves from a four movement form gradually to a three movement
form and is by no means standard by the Classical period. The concerto, on
the other hand springs to life almost immediately as a three movement genre.
The parallel of the "Phrygian" in the Albinone to the Beethoven simply
isn't there. In order to have a "Phrygian" relationship, there needs to be
a half step movement away from the tonic. In the Albinone example, there is
strictly diatonic movement as follows:
i p.t. III i6/4
II6 I6/4 V i (p.t.=passing tone)
Note there is no chromatic alteration that would be needed for a Phrygian
modality. Also, Beethoven does not use passing tones.
Hence the comparison doesn't work.

"Roni" wrote in message@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> Richard,
>
> Thank you for the comments, but I must argue.
>
> > "The sonata, which is in three movements, as most sonatas of the
classical
> > period...."
> >
> > This is certainly true of the concerto, but it is by no means true of
the
> > sonata. Several of Beethoven's early sonatas contain four movements.
>
> It is true that Beethoven and other composers of the classical era had
> written sonatas with 4 and sometimes 2 movements, but the vast
> majority of classical sonatas had 3 movements, and that is what is
> meant by "most".
>
> > Also, Assuming the Albinone excerpt he cites is in C# minor, it goes
nowhere
> > near the claimed "subdominant F#" tonality. The F# is merely used as a
> > passing tone in the bass.
> >
> > In actuality, the whole question is moot as the excerpt selected
appears
> > to be in the key of G# minor, not C# minor!!
>
> The "f-sharp" note in the bass refers to the opening bars of
> Beethoven's sonata, and not Albinoni's. It is indeed a passing tone in
> the bass, and that is why the whole descending bass line is not a
> strict Phrygian progression. There is no change of tonality, but the f-
> sharp note is a subdominant note in the key of C-sharp minor, while
> the harmony is a Neapolitan sixth.
>
> The Albinoni excerpt is in G minor.
>
> So, there are not inconsistencies or untruths. It is merely a question
> of reading the text correctly - perhaps the paragraph should be
> revised.
>
> Roni
>

Roni · Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

Richard,

> First of all I apologize for stating the Albinone was in G# minor. I
> thought the author was making a direct key parallel, and thereby discounted
> the half step. Otherwise, though, I have to disagree. The sonata in the
> 18th century evolves from a four movement form gradually to a three movement
> form and is by no means standard by the Classical period. The concerto, on
> the other hand springs to life almost immediately as a three movement genre.
> The parallel of the "Phrygian" in the Albinone to the Beethoven simply
> isn't there. In order to have a "Phrygian" relationship, there needs to be
> a half step movement away from the tonic. In the Albinone example, there is
> strictly diatonic movement as follows:
> i p.t. III i6/4
> II6 I6/4 V i (p.t.=passing tone)
> Note there is no chromatic alteration that would be needed for a Phrygian
> modality. Also, Beethoven does not use passing tones.
> Hence the comparison doesn't work.

I was not referring to the Phrygian mode, but to the Phrygian
progression, the descending tetrachord with intervals tone-tone-
semitone - specifically for this purpose explained in the previous
post: http://classicalmusicblog.com/2007/08/phrygian-progression.html

While it is present in the bass in Albinoni's Adagio - in full, in
Beethoven's opening it isn't - because it detours to subdominant f-
sharp before reaching the target dominant g-sharp - to quote from the
original. Again, we are talking about the bass line, and the
descending Phrygian tetrachord.

Please reconsider your judgement.

Roni

david7gable · Joined: 28 Sep 2007 Posts: 1

On Sep 26, 7:35 pm, Roni wrote:

> It is true that Beethoven and other composers of the classical era had
> written sonatas with 4 and sometimes 2 movements, but the vast
> majority of classical sonatas had 3 movements, and that is what is
> meant by "most".

Roni is absolutely correct on this point: most late 18th-century
sonatas were indeed in three movements.

-david gable

Richard · Joined: 27 Sep 2007 Posts: 6

I'm not sure where the research is coming from, but we only have to look at
Beethoven's own 13 previous piano sonatas to the "Moonlight" to realize how
misleading the original statement is. Of the first thirteen Beethoven
sonatas, fully nine contain four movements (nos. 1,2,3,4,6,7,11,12,13). Only
four contain three movements (nos.5,8,9,10)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is the specific period of which
the analyst was speaking.

wrote in message@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 26, 7:35 pm, Roni wrote:
>
> > It is true that Beethoven and other composers of the classical era had
> > written sonatas with 4 and sometimes 2 movements, but the vast
> > majority of classical sonatas had 3 movements, and that is what is
> > meant by "most".
>
> Roni is absolutely correct on this point: most late 18th-century
> sonatas were indeed in three movements.
>
> -david gable
>

Richard · Joined: 27 Sep 2007 Posts: 6

Thank you for sending me the Phrygian post. It made the comparison clearer.
I comprehend now what the analyst was getting at. Of course it has
everything to do with the Phrygian mode because of the half step
relationship it presents.
The problem with the example is that the author makes an awkward comparison.
In the Beethoven the half step is in a middle voice whereas in the Albinone
it is in the bass. The gesture is the same, but is certainly not readily
apparent.

"Roni" wrote in message@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> Richard,
>
> > First of all I apologize for stating the Albinone was in G# minor. I
> > thought the author was making a direct key parallel, and thereby
discounted
> > the half step. Otherwise, though, I have to disagree. The sonata in
the
> > 18th century evolves from a four movement form gradually to a three
movement
> > form and is by no means standard by the Classical period. The
concerto, on
> > the other hand springs to life almost immediately as a three movement
genre.
> > The parallel of the "Phrygian" in the Albinone to the Beethoven simply
> > isn't there. In order to have a "Phrygian" relationship, there needs to
be
> > a half step movement away from the tonic. In the Albinone example,
there is
> > strictly diatonic movement as follows:
> > i p.t. III i6/4
> > II6 I6/4 V i (p.t.=passing tone)
> > Note there is no chromatic alteration that would be needed for a
Phrygian
> > modality. Also, Beethoven does not use passing tones.
> > Hence the comparison doesn't work.
>
> I was not referring to the Phrygian mode, but to the Phrygian
> progression, the descending tetrachord with intervals tone-tone-
> semitone - specifically for this purpose explained in the previous
> post: http://classicalmusicblog.com/2007/08/phrygian-progression.html
>
> While it is present in the bass in Albinoni's Adagio - in full, in
> Beethoven's opening it isn't - because it detours to subdominant f-
> sharp before reaching the target dominant g-sharp - to quote from the
> original. Again, we are talking about the bass line, and the
> descending Phrygian tetrachord.
>
> Please reconsider your judgement.
>
> Roni
>

Michael Haslam · Joined: 04 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

[top-posting fixed]
Richard wrote:
>
> wrote in message
> @g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 26, 7:35 pm, Roni wrote:
> >
> > > It is true that Beethoven and other composers of the classical era had
> > > written sonatas with 4 and sometimes 2 movements, but the vast
> > > majority of classical sonatas had 3 movements, and that is what is
> > > meant by "most".
> >
> > Roni is absolutely correct on this point: most late 18th-century
> > sonatas were indeed in three movements.
>
> I'm not sure where the research is coming from, but we only have to look at
> Beethoven's own 13 previous piano sonatas to the "Moonlight" to realize how
> misleading the original statement is. Of the first thirteen Beethoven
> sonatas, fully nine contain four movements (nos. 1,2,3,4,6,7,11,12,13). Only
> four contain three movements (nos.5,8,9,10)
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is the specific period of which
> the analyst was speaking.

A quick look through the last volume of Haydn pf sonatas shows none with
4 movements and a pretty even split between 2 and 3 movements.

--
MJHaslam
Remove accidentals to obtain correct e-address

Roni · Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

> Thank you for sending me the Phrygian post. It made the comparison clearer.
> I comprehend now what the analyst was getting at. Of course it has
> everything to do with the Phrygian mode because of the half step
> relationship it presents.
> The problem with the example is that the author makes an awkward comparison.
> In the Beethoven the half step is in a middle voice whereas in the Albinone
> it is in the bass. The gesture is the same, but is certainly not readily
> apparent.

No, Richard. The comparison is of the descending bass lines in both
pieces!

Richard · Joined: 27 Sep 2007 Posts: 6

"The comparison is of the descending bass lines in both
pieces!"

Descending bass lines have been a standard component of Western classical
music since the beginning of the Baroque era. The author was specifically
discussing a descending Phrygian bass line used similarly in Beethoven's
work and Albinone's.
Beethoven bass line: C# B A F# G# G# C#
Albinone bass line: G F Eb-D C D G

As you may or may not know the Beethoven bass line contains no half steps
and thereby has no Phrygian quality.
The Phrygian quality in the opening bars of the "Moonlight Sonata" is
obtained by the D natural in the third measure which is 1/2 step above the
preceding C# (forming part of a Neapolitan 6th chord -- a typical Phrygian
device.)

The Albinone example obtains it's Phrygian quality from the Eb-D 1/2 step in
the bass.

No, Roni, It's not so simple just to say they both have descending bass
lines.

"Roni" wrote in message@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > Thank you for sending me the Phrygian post. It made the comparison
clearer.
> > I comprehend now what the analyst was getting at. Of course it has
> > everything to do with the Phrygian mode because of the half step
> > relationship it presents.
> > The problem with the example is that the author makes an awkward
comparison.
> > In the Beethoven the half step is in a middle voice whereas in the
Albinone
> > it is in the bass. The gesture is the same, but is certainly not
readily
> > apparent.
>
> No, Richard. The comparison is of the descending bass lines in both
> pieces!
>

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